Nova vozila v prodaji, konceptna vozila in vsa vozila, o katerih lahko (zaenkrat) le sanjamo...
 
Uporabniški avatar
Avalon
Novinec
 
Prispevkov: 414
Pridružen: Ne nov 28, 2004 12:22 am
Kraj: Vrhnika

Napisal/-a Avalon Pe dec 17, 2004 12:40 pm

Pa smo zašli v motorje malo sem brskal po netu in našel sledeče...

When you study the V10 unit with the eyes of the engineer you start to wonder. Whose idea is it actually, the V10 magic, as we will see in the coming Porsche Carrera GT (2003) and to follow rumours, the coming BMW M5 top of the line and M6 (2004)?
If we forget the Dodge/Chrysler Viper for a while (the brutal American is powered by a light truck engine in stock!) the V10 design comes from Formula 1- racing. The current formula is 3000 cc – and with this very engine size the V10 design is the perfect compromise between engine weight, consumption and max. rpm, that is necessary to generate power.
The V10 comes from the old V8 – typically the Ford Cosworth V8 3-litre engine that gave Schumacher his first World title. At the same time the only alternative was the Ferrari V12. Later followed the 1.5-litre turbo-formula, then the 3500 cc formula and now the 3000 cc normal-aspiration formula. Right here the V10 is the very best formula and that’s why all units are V10 at the moment.
Talking about engines to sports cars the V8 has it’s own beautiful sound and the V12 tone is even better. But – we are sorry to say so – the V10 does not play like any orchestra – rock or symphonic. The V8 and the V12 are both well balanced – the V10 is in no way better in this field.
In other words – it’s hard to find the very argument for the V10 unit – apart from this very one: That’s how the do in Formula 1. And in the near future will be added another one: That’s how Porsche does.
OUR OPINION
“MAYBE IT IS hard (or rather impossible) to find the technical argument to a V10 sports car engine we welcome the coming Porsche and BMW units. First of all they will both be extremely powerful (Porsche 558 HP and BMW 500 HP), besides V10 is the Formula 1 design, objectively better or not. And that fact gives the V10 street engine an extra dimension - the emotionally touch. And after all, that is what sports car driving – also - is all about.”
Flemming Haslund

BMW
This time it happens to be another of the other great marques of motoring to attempt this. The all-new BMW V10 in the M5 is one of the most fascinating drive concepts featured in a production ever and an engine with the same number of cylinders as its F1 BMW Williams racing counterpart.
Its 5.0-litre cubic capacity is larger than the F1 engine, with a power output of 378kW at around 8000rpm and peak torque of 520Nm. With these figures it should challenge the top end of the saloon car brigade. Finally here's a motor that can genuinely be considered the most perfect example of performance-engine technology in a production saloon car. In fact it can't be bettered at present.
The compact, high-revving, normally aspirated F1-based engine is red-lined at 8250rpm, over 25 percent more powerful than the original V8 in the M5. It's also the first big-bore normally aspirated engine in a production saloon car to develop over 100bhp per litre.

Its two five-cylinder banks of the V10 are arranged at an angle of 90 degrees for better mass balance of the crankshaft drive and low vibration. For reasons of stiffness a bed-plate design is in place while for optimum alignment of the crankshaft grey-cast iron inserts have been integrated into the aluminium bedplate to enhance acoustics, reduce vibration and allow a high oil supply rate. The extremely stiff crankshaft is supported by six bearings.
The one-piece aluminium cylinder heads feature a four-valve per cylinder layout as in F1 engines, the valve train being of low mass with flow-optimised 5mm-shaft valves, spherical valve tappets with hydraulic valve-play compensation and single valve springs. Included is BMW's bi-VANOS variable valve timing for optimised charge cycles resulting in better performance, improved torque curve, responsiveness, lower consumption and lower emissions.
Other race-car features are the 10 flow-optimised intake trumpets to accelerate air flow from two intake plenums, with each individual cylinder having its own throttle actuated and electronically controlled for quicker response in the lower and high rev ranges.
The MS S65 engine management system is central to the V10's great performance and low emission levels and is the most powerful system in any car at present. The system controls inputs for each individual cycle for each cylinder at the optimum ignition point, with the correct gas charge, injection quantity and injection points. At the same time optimum camshaft angle and optimum position of the ten individual throttles are also controlled.
Another highlight is ionic current-technology to detect engine knock, misfiring and combustion misses via the spark plugs. Thus the spark plug has a dual function — as an actuator for the ignition and sensor for monitoring the combustion process.
The ionic current is controlled during the combustion process via a 'current-satellite' that receives signals from the five spark plugs of each cylinder bank. Dependent on the load, these signals are amplified and transmitted to the engine management system for analysis, where adjustments to the ignition point of each cylinder and knock control to the combustion process is done.
Naturally with the outputs of an engine of this calibre short overall transmission ratios to optimise performance are required. To this end a seven-speed SMG gearbox was chosen and is the first seven-speed sequential gearbox with a drivelogic function. Even more highly perfected than the previous six-speed transmission, the seven-speed SMG gearbox enables manual gear selection with ultra-short shifting times as well as comfortable cruising via automatic gear selection. The purpose of the additional seventh gear is to reduce engine speed and torque gaps.
With the seven-speed SMG gearbox and via the paddles, gears can be changed 20 percent faster than the previous version. Never before has it been quicker to change gears with a transmission of this kind. And thanks to the SMG's drivelogic function you can choose from eleven gear-change options, allowing you to adapt the SMG's characteristics to your style of driving.
Six of these programs can be pre-selected in the sequential manual gearbox mode (S mode) ranging from balanced dynamic to very sporty. With the gearbox in the S mode the driver shifts gears manually. And whenever you activate Launch Control the SMG Drivelogic shifts gears just before the maximum engine revs and with optimum slip.
In D (Drive), automatic mode, the transmission shifts the seven gears automatically depending on the program selected, driving situation, road speed and position of the accelerator pedal.
Naturally quality standards for such a technologically advanced set- up must be of the highest order. And as the materials and components of such a high-revving engine are exposed to immense loads, extreme demands are placed on surface quality and production tolerances. Some parts and components are processed to up to one thousandth of a millimetre.
The coding of the core components enables staff to keep track of each individual component from goods receipt, to processing and installation. A storage data medium is provided for each engine to ensure that the right parts and tools are used.

Mercedes-Benz
The best, the biggest and most powerful of all production engines in the world.
Mercedes-Benz, a company that until recently built cars in its own image - big, bulky and boring - is thankfully still on the warpath to maintain its leadership in its new-found world of big-big performance.
By garnering the 'Best Performance Engine in the World' for its S65 AMG engine it reaffirms the German giant's welcome stand in this direction.
And while the engine is pushed to almost cosmic output levels, the good news is the development of the ancillary high-tech mechanical ancillaries such as gearboxes, differential, suspension and other devices used to keep such power under control. In fact the development of such equipment goes hand in hand with the development of such powerful motors.
Here we're talking about a biturbo engine with 450kW and elephantine torque of 1 000Nm. This is all via an air/water inter-cooled 5 980cc V12 engine that ranks as the most powerful engine produced by AMG with a specific power output of 102bhp per litre and specific torque a massive 167Nm per litre.
There is another little used measure - maximum mean effective pressure - an absolute measure of an engine's performance, in this case 21.0 bar at the maximum torque of 1 000Nm. These figures indicate that the AMG V12 outperforms every other series-production force-fed petrol engine in any passenger-car.
And the secret is that the AMG V12 cruises about without bother in high gear with fine linear engine response. And to stay with the game the design of the biturbo engine has been totally revised - the increase in the displacement from 5 513 to 5 980cc one of many improvements. The bore was increased from 82.0 to 82.6 millimetres while the dynamically precision-balanced crankshaft made from high- strength material had its stroke increased from 87 to 93mm.
To take the increased dynamic forces, forged pistons made from a special material resistant to temperature and pressures have optimised oil-spray cooling with separate individual nozzles for each piston. To take care of the new larger pistons the main and con-rod bearings are made from high-spec materials for improved durability while the combustion chambers and inlet ports have been fettled and improved to assist combustion and gas flow. Naturally this meant increasing camshaft lift on the intake side and lengthening cam-timing phases as well.
With all the heat generated a modified oil pump and larger oil cooler ensure lubrication points are well supplied with oil under the most extreme conditions. Compressor, turbine housings and turbine and compressor wheels are also increased in the turbochargers to increase the maximum charge pressure to 1.5 bar. These improvements led to fitting larger injection valve openings for more effective fuel supply.
Another feature is an intercooler equipped with a front-mounted low- temperature radiator, some 70 percent larger than before. The system uses the efficient air/water heat-exchanger principle to cool the compressed and unwanted heated intake air, before it enters the combustion chambers. This low-temperature radiator assists in reducing the intake-air temperature at full load by 25%. This system guarantees high power and torque levels, whatever the outside temperature or operating conditions.
The all-new electronic fuel supply system works with a pressure of 3.8 bar in order to ensure an adequate fuel supply to the twelve cylinders. The system also includes a revised electronic engine management system with new waste-gate valve actuation control for the two exhaust-gas turbochargers.
Then to finish off the whole gambit of improvements a great V12 engine sound is guaranteed via an all-new AMG performance exhaust system with a new muffler design. Thanks to the use of three valves per cylinder, dual ignition and efficient catalytic-converter technology the S65 AMG complies with the EU-4 exhaust emission standard that comes into force from 2005.
The redesigned engine cover made from deep-drawn aluminium and carbon-fibre reinforced plastic (CFRP) is impressive and weighs just 1 500 grams. Like all AMG engines the V12 is assembled by hand on the topmost floor of the AMG engine facility, adjacent to the line where the supercharged AMG V8 for the new Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren is produced.
The AMG 'one man, one engine' philosophy is in place with the characteristic signature plate bearing the name of the specialist assembling the engine affixed to it. This guarantees the highest standards of quality and workmanship on the V12.
Power is transmitted by the AMG SPEEDSHIFT five-speed automatic transmission with steering-wheel-mounted gearshift controls.
Various transmission components were optimised to ensure safe and reliable handling of the massive torque outputs. These include newly developed clutch pack discs with a high-quality metal coating, optimised shift and torque-converter-lockup logic, redesigned drive shafts and upgraded hub carriers.
This truly outstanding set-up allows the CL65 AMG and the S65 AMG to accelerate from 0 to 100km/h in just 4.4 seconds and hit 200km/h in ... yes, only 13.3 seconds. And, interestingly, although the maximum speed is electronically limited to 250km/h, the speedometer is calibrated to 360km/h. An interesting message, is it not?

Audi
Audi has always produced engines with advanced technology. Remember the great pre-war, rear-engine grand prix Auto Unions and the wonderful multi-valve quattro rally cars of the 70's. In fact, it is Audi that has taken the five-valve-per-cylinder technology to its present heights on most of its petrol engines - except for the latest V12.
In a discussion with an Audi engineer recently who was part of the 5- valve Audi saga, he went to lengths to explain to me the principles for using so many valves per cylinder. The gist of it went something like this. "The 5-valve layout offers the longest circumference of valve seat length of all combustion chamber valve layouts." In simple terms this implies that strangely enough the 5-valve layout offers more valve circumference length than even a 6-valve layout and naturally more so than the 4-, 3- and 2-valve layouts. It's all to do with the given area of the circular base of the combustion chamber, less the spark plug aperture in the chamber.
The 6-valve layout was tried and tested by Maserati during the '50s and in fact Audi dug up the results in some dusty files and decided there and then to use 5-valves - the number used in F1 engines. This layout offers the best breathing abilities to engines without going to excessive wild cam timings while still offering more linear power curves.
The 5-valve layout also offers engineers the potential to derive improved specific power outputs without having to go too wild on cam timing and other modifications that result in rougher running motors at given revs. In fact the Audi quad-cam V8 engine is the closest you will get to F1 technology in a production saloon car.
Our most recent 2-way shootout, reported elsewhere in this mag, well indicates this. To achieve parity or to beat the RS6, the E55 AMG Merc is bored out to 5.5-litres to give its SOHC V8 3-valve-per- cylinder two spark plug motor any chance. This is clearly indicated by the fact that in specific power output terms the 4.2-litre RS6 engine winds out 79kW per litre as opposed to the 64 of the E55, which in fact means that if the Audi were taken to 5.5 litres it would paralyse the Merc E55.
The RS6 is Audi's most powerful engine to date, the V8 biturbo engine developing 331kW (450bhp), offering performance of a thoroughbred Gran Turismo. The fact that its peak torque of 560Nm is available across an extremely wide range between 1950 to 5600rpm via the variable shaped inlet tracts, is also exceptional.
The engine in the Audi RS6 has an aluminium block with five valves per cylinder - three inlet and two exhaust - actuated by roller-bearing rocker arms, and a single spark plug. The twin turbochargers' outputs are also improved by the use of large intercoolers. One of the secrets behind its great performance are its two fast-acting turbochargers with quick spool-up times and low lag parameters. As with most top V- shaped engines a turbocharger per each bank of cylinders takes care of boost pressures.
Hotter cams take care of the increased gas charges and in order to attain the high outputs the cylinder head inlet and exhaust ports have been modified from the standard V8 engine. The tracts at both the intake and boost side are redesigned and fettled to take the massive flows of gas charges. With the extremely high temperatures generated, the water jackets have been carefully improved to ensure optimum heat dissipation in the area of the combustion chambers and valves.
Another key aspect is the adapted engine management offered by the Bosch Motronic ME 7.1.1 to control boost pressure, knock, exhaust- gas temperature and most importantly the variable timing of the wilder cams. The whole system is carefully matched to offer better biturbo functionality too.
The important back-pressure values are also optimised via the specially developed dual-branch exhaust system consisting of redesigned middle and rear silencers with large diameter pipes, and primary and main catalytic converters with metal substrates.
Another feature built into this great engine is the importance given to make it sound the part - something Alfa Romeo has done for many years - and indicates the advanced thinking of Audi's engineers by offering the conoscenti the best in all respects.
With careful tuning they've arranged a powerful sound guaranteed to raise the hair on any petrol-head's arms and body. The Audi RS6 also satisfies EU3 emission standards.
The air cleaner with two filter-elements is positioned above the engine with the housing made of a carbon-fibre composite material with a carbon plate over the front section to form a good-looking cover.
The tractive capability of quattro permanent four-wheel drive takes care of the biturbo's high torque and power outputs with impressive efficiency and directional stability. With the correct fuel the RS6 sprints from 0 to 100km/h in 4.7 seconds and reaches a top speed of 250 km/h - governed by electronic means.
To further control the barrels of power and torque the automatic five- speed tiptronic transmission specially developed for the RS6 and lifted from the new 6-litre V12 Audi A8, is fitted. Modifications were made to the system to achieve shorter shifting times with tiptronic's adaptive program recognising the driver's style and varying the shift points accordingly.
With an engine of such stature the tiptronic system is designed to bring out the sporty nature of the RS6, especially when driving in the dynamic Sport program. This allows the S mode to push the gears higher up so that the tiptronic changes up later and down sooner.
Another feature for hard, passionate driving in the tiptronic mode is also available. Depending on lateral acceleration the advanced tiptronic selects a sub-program that delays the shift points even further. In this way the gears are pushed up as far as possible to prevent unwanted shifting by interrupting traction when cornering at speed to cause major problems.
Naturally to get the most out of the RS6 you can also operate the tiptronic manually via the selector lever on the centre console or by pressing one of two shift paddles. These are fixed to the steering wheel with their recesses conveniently within reach, regardless of the position of the steering wheel.
If the driver actively intervenes in the tiptronic mode, his choice of gear overrides the driving program for ten seconds. For safety reasons, the transmission control will always check the plausibility of the shift command.

Porsche ne spada v kategorijo BMW in MB V10 ampak bolj v MB SLR in Ferarri Enzo, vseeno zanimivo branje

The battle in the big-name super-car world continues unabated, with Ferrari's Enzo holding the throne at present. But with the imminent arrival of the Mercedes SLR McLaren and Porsche's Carrera GT it will have its work cut out. A furious battle of kings is looming.
To this end the Carrera GT has been well prepared by its creators to make a fine battle of it. As a starter the Carrera engine is derived from Porsche's halted Le Mans racing programme. In fact it was built to race, but due to a change of mind the V10 engine was set aside and instead used in the fireball Carrera GT. In its Le Mans guise the engine had a 5.5-litre cubic capacity, but now, bored out to 5.8 litres, develops 463kW (612bhp) at 8000rpm.
The engine weighs in at just 214kg, which is 65kg heavier than the racing version.
A feature of the engine is its load-bearing design that adds strength and rigidity to the monocoque chassis.
And to attain better power and torque curves and smoother outputs throughout the rev range, Porsche's VarioCam continuous valve timing system is in place. Similar to Honda's V-TEC system it not only varies cam-timing phases but cam lift as well - all controlled by a Motronic ME 7.1.1 electronic system. The intake camshaft's adjustment range is 40 degrees.
In place of the cylinder liners the bores are lined with Nicasil, a combination of nickel and sodium. This arrangement also helps keep engine length as short as possible. Titanium con rods are used to take care of the high rev range. Naturally, for an engine of this calibre, a dry sump is used for extreme driving conditions. The omission of the normal oil sump allows for the engine to be closer to the ground, achieving a lower centre of gravity and consequently finer road holding qualities.
Most V-engines derive the angle between the cylinder banks from common angles - mostly 60 or 90 degrees. In Porsche's case, the engineers chose a 68-degree angle, a figure arrived at not due to space considerations but via computer aided calculations.
This was done to find which cylinders and 16 possible firing- order phases would achieve the best compromise between maximum efficiency of the inlet and exhaust systems and the lowest vibration levels. The resultant figure was 68.
In effect what this achieved was the crank pins remaining at 72 degrees to each other, with the firing order alternating between 68 and 76 degrees - this without any reduction in engine smoothness and efficiency.
The engine block has a closed-deck configuration - a principle derived from competition engines. A further advantage of this is a considerable increase in crankcase strength and stability. Achieving such engine power is one thing - cooling it is another. And here the configuration offers substantial advantages, the cylinders being surrounded directly by water. Crossflow cooling ensures optimum transfer of heat to the coolant cycle while guaranteeing consistent cooling of all 10 cylinders, even under high engine load. Three radiators at the front of the car contribute to the cooling effect.
Like the crankcase, the cylinder heads on the Carrera GT resemble those of a fully-fledged racing engine. Construction of the crankcase in one piece integrates the secondary air ducts as well as the separate bearing blocks for the camshaft. Camshaft drive is via a combined sprocket/chain system with rigid cup tappets to guarantee a stiff and sturdy valve drive, with low masses and compact dimensions.
The Carrera GT engine comes with a two-chamber exhaust system featuring one pre-catalyst and one main catalyst on each side. The new engine also fulfils all global environmental standards and requirements - such as the European EU4 standard that come into force in 2005. The pre-catalysts are close to the engine and behind the manifold, while the main catalysts are integrated in the rear end silencer. A double lambda control with two oxygen sensors for each row of cylinders serves to monitor the catalytic converters and the catalytic process.
Made of stainless steel, the exhaust system has a volume of only 40 litres due to compact dimension and space requirements. Precisely tuned interaction of the blending chambers helps provide a powerful 'Porsche' sound in combination with the high-frequency roar of a thoroughbred racing-engine.
A transverse 6-speed gearbox takes care of the big outputs without going through a normal two-mass flywheel or conventional clutch. Instead torque is fed through a novel, hollow main-input-shaft with a thin inner solid rod acting as a torsion spring to dampen power fluctuations. This allows for a more rapid rev build-up. The two ceramic plates with four titanium backing plates are part of the system that weighs just 3.49kg. Only 16.9cm in diameter the clutch is much lighter than the larger normal versions.
Built at Porsche's engine plant in Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen the V10 Carrera GT has excellent built-in strength and stiffness qualities and through its design as a load-bearing component, cylinder bores in the motor remain free of any distortion. The feature of keeping the number of individual parts and weight to a minimum by integrating the coolant and oil pipes into the cast housing is also typical in competition cars. This does away with individual connections and sealing elements, serving not only to optimise the weight of the engine and its ancillaries, but enhances reliability and running qualities.
And how does the engine perform in the aggressive looking Carrera GT? How about a top speed of 330km/h, acceleration from 0-100km/h is just 3.9 seconds and hitting the 200km/h mark in a low 9.9 seconds!

Za vse, ki se vam ne da brati vsega.
Povzetek...
V cestno športnih avtomobilih se pravi BMW M6 & co. glede na prostornino motorja BMW vedno iztisne iz njega največ.
Varno vožnjo vam želi Avalon.
 
Uporabniški avatar
Slide
Moderator foruma
 
Prispevkov: 4349
Pridružen: Po maj 03, 2004 10:55 am

Napisal/-a Slide Pe dec 17, 2004 12:43 pm

Avalon, dej raj link skopiri, za tiste k bojo hotl brat...tole je pa res mal dolgo :shock:
Understeer is when the driver is scared, oversteer is when the passengers are scared
 
Uporabniški avatar
Caterham
Stalni uporabnik
 
Prispevkov: 535
Pridružen: Sr jul 21, 2004 10:20 pm
Kraj: Doma

Napisal/-a Caterham Pe dec 17, 2004 1:56 pm

Demo je napisal/-a:
Caterham je napisal/-a:Da mal uskocm v tole debato k se zlo zanimivo razvija.....Tuki je link do filmcka k raznese motor ferrariju....

http://www.rsportscars.net/media/ferrari_456.mpeg


Ta model k je vozu ferrarija je to naredu zanalašč, upam da nisi hotu s tem filmčkom povedat da ferrarijem hitr crkujejo motorji :)


Noup, sam k se je tok govoril o enih filmckih k raznese od ferrarija motor, pa sm ga dal gor ce slucajn kdo ne ve o cem se je slo. Vem pa da je blo tole namerno narejeno.... :!:
No need to be big to go fast......
 
PureTNT
Uporabnik
 
Prispevkov: 814
Pridružen: Pe dec 10, 2004 10:36 pm

Napisal/-a PureTNT Pe dec 17, 2004 6:24 pm

Caterham je napisal/-a:
Demo je napisal/-a:
Caterham je napisal/-a:Da mal uskocm v tole debato k se zlo zanimivo razvija.....Tuki je link do filmcka k raznese motor ferrariju....

http://www.rsportscars.net/media/ferrari_456.mpeg


Ta model k je vozu ferrarija je to naredu zanalašč, upam da nisi hotu s tem filmčkom povedat da ferrarijem hitr crkujejo motorji :)


Noup, sam k se je tok govoril o enih filmckih k raznese od ferrarija motor, pa sm ga dal gor ce slucajn kdo ne ve o cem se je slo. Vem pa da je blo tole namerno narejeno.... :!:


Hvala, da se ti je dal poiskat Caterham.
V cestno športnih avtomobilih se pravi BMW M6 & co. glede na prostornino motorja BMW vedno iztisne iz njega največ.

Kar se tiče BMWjevih motorjev se strinjam, da glede na prostornino iztisnejo veliko. Čeprav ima CGT 612 konj, ne 558 (toliko jih je imela študija).
Zadnjič spremenil PureTNT, dne Pe dec 17, 2004 6:30 pm, skupaj popravljeno 1 krat.
 
s_mande
Stalni uporabnik
 
Prispevkov: 740
Pridružen: Sr nov 24, 2004 11:17 am
Kraj: Koroska

Napisal/-a s_mande Pe dec 17, 2004 6:27 pm

TA LINK SPLOH NE DELA!!! SI GA TI MOGOCE PROBAL!!! :!: :/:o:/
 
Uporabniški avatar
Caterham
Stalni uporabnik
 
Prispevkov: 535
Pridružen: Sr jul 21, 2004 10:20 pm
Kraj: Doma

Napisal/-a Caterham Pe dec 17, 2004 6:51 pm

s_mande je napisal/-a:TA LINK SPLOH NE DELA!!! SI GA TI MOGOCE PROBAL!!! :!: :/:o:/


:ne :ne Men cist lepo dela...se ene parkrat pobi ce ti pa ne dela, pejt pa na http://www.rsportscars.com/slo/video.asp pa ga tm najt.... :con Pa ne pozabi....desni klik in save target as....ce ti direktn klik ne dela... :!:
No need to be big to go fast......
 
_Jerry_
Uporabnik
 
Prispevkov: 1196
Pridružen: Če jul 22, 2004 12:55 pm
Kraj: Ljubljana

Napisal/-a _Jerry_ Pe dec 17, 2004 11:42 pm

Pure TNT, ne glede na vsa polena, ki so ti jih zmetali pod noge in neglede na to, da sem sam velik ljubitelj BMWjev, ti pa jih v tej temi v glavnem kritiziras, bi ti rad cestital za odlicne prispevke! Ceprav ocitno nimas tehnicne izobrazbe, se lepo vidi, da te stvar zelo zanima in da svoje (morda pomanjkljivo) tehnicno znanje uspesno nadomestis z zdravo pametjo in logicnim razmisljanjem. Kljub temu, da najbrz (se) nisi inzenir, je PRAV TO tipicna, da ne recem obvezna, lastnost inzenirjev (ali pa naj bi vsaj bila). Druga stvar, ki me je pri tvojem pisanju pritegnila, pa je pravilna uporaba slovenskega jezika. Ceprav nisem nikakrsen "knjizni molj", imam rad lepo besedo in nek sestavek preberem veliko raje (pa tudi hitreje in lazje ga razumem), ce je napisan razumljivo in slovnicno pravilno. Ker prej te priloznosti nisem imel, bi te obenem se pozdravil in ti zazelel dobrodoslico na forumu ;)

Kar se tice BMWja M6 pa je moje misljenje sledece: Tako, kot je napisal TNT, je avto za kaksne resne sportne uzitke zal prevelik in preokoren. Namerno nisem napisal pretezak, ker vem, kako se BMW trudi, da bi pri konstrukciji uporabil kar se da lahke materiale. A zelje kupcev (in s tem posledicno tudi vodstva tovarne BMW) so eno, zmoznosti razvojnih inzenirjev pa na zalost cisto nekaj drugega. Avtomobila, ki bi bil hkrati hiter, udoben, prestizen, okreten in povrhu vsega se zanesljiv in nezahteven za vzdrzevanje, se zal ne da narediti. Pri BMWju so v (ne tako daljnji) preteklosti ze imeli podoben projekt, ki pa se je zal slabo koncal. To je bila seveda serija 8. Novi M6 je kljub drugacnemu imenu cisto nic drugega kot samo naslednik 850 CSi in ima kot tak ze na zacetku zelo tezko nalogo. Pri vsem tem me najbolj cudi ravno to, da se pri BMWju niso iz slabih izkusenj v preteklosti prav nic naucili, ampak se naprej trmasto rinejo z glavo skozi zid. Nadaljevanje prihodnjic... :hi
 
PureTNT
Uporabnik
 
Prispevkov: 814
Pridružen: Pe dec 10, 2004 10:36 pm

Napisal/-a PureTNT So dec 18, 2004 12:18 pm

_Jerry_ je napisal/-a:Pure TNT, ne glede na vsa polena, ki so ti jih zmetali pod noge in neglede na to, da sem sam velik ljubitelj BMWjev, ti pa jih v tej temi v glavnem kritiziras, bi ti rad cestital za odlicne prispevke! Ceprav ocitno nimas tehnicne izobrazbe, se lepo vidi, da te stvar zelo zanima in da svoje (morda pomanjkljivo) tehnicno znanje uspesno nadomestis z zdravo pametjo in logicnim razmisljanjem. Kljub temu, da najbrz (se) nisi inzenir, je PRAV TO tipicna, da ne recem obvezna, lastnost inzenirjev (ali pa naj bi vsaj bila). Druga stvar, ki me je pri tvojem pisanju pritegnila, pa je pravilna uporaba slovenskega jezika. Ceprav nisem nikakrsen "knjizni molj", imam rad lepo besedo in nek sestavek preberem veliko raje (pa tudi hitreje in lazje ga razumem), ce je napisan razumljivo in slovnicno pravilno. Ker prej te priloznosti nisem imel, bi te obenem se pozdravil in ti zazelel dobrodoslico na forumu ;)

Kar se tice BMWja M6 pa je moje misljenje sledece: Tako, kot je napisal TNT, je avto za kaksne resne sportne uzitke zal prevelik in preokoren. Namerno nisem napisal pretezak, ker vem, kako se BMW trudi, da bi pri konstrukciji uporabil kar se da lahke materiale. A zelje kupcev (in s tem posledicno tudi vodstva tovarne BMW) so eno, zmoznosti razvojnih inzenirjev pa na zalost cisto nekaj drugega. Avtomobila, ki bi bil hkrati hiter, udoben, prestizen, okreten in povrhu vsega se zanesljiv in nezahteven za vzdrzevanje, se zal ne da narediti. Pri BMWju so v (ne tako daljnji) preteklosti ze imeli podoben projekt, ki pa se je zal slabo koncal. To je bila seveda serija 8. Novi M6 je kljub drugacnemu imenu cisto nic drugega kot samo naslednik 850 CSi in ima kot tak ze na zacetku zelo tezko nalogo. Pri vsem tem me najbolj cudi ravno to, da se pri BMWju niso iz slabih izkusenj v preteklosti prav nic naucili, ampak se naprej trmasto rinejo z glavo skozi zid. Nadaljevanje prihodnjic... :hi


Jerry, hvala za podporo in dobrodošlico :pivo

Kar se tiče BMWjevih modelov se popolnoma strinjam s tvojo oceno obeh avtomobilov, tako da tukaj nimam več ničesar za dodat.

Lp, Pure ;)
 
Uporabniški avatar
Slide
Moderator foruma
 
Prispevkov: 4349
Pridružen: Po maj 03, 2004 10:55 am

Napisal/-a Slide So dec 18, 2004 12:42 pm

_Jerry_ je napisal/-a:Kar se tice BMWja M6 pa je moje misljenje sledece: Tako, kot je napisal TNT, je avto za kaksne resne sportne uzitke zal prevelik in preokoren. Namerno nisem napisal pretezak, ker vem, kako se BMW trudi, da bi pri konstrukciji uporabil kar se da lahke materiale. A zelje kupcev (in s tem posledicno tudi vodstva tovarne BMW) so eno, zmoznosti razvojnih inzenirjev pa na zalost cisto nekaj drugega. Avtomobila, ki bi bil hkrati hiter, udoben, prestizen, okreten in povrhu vsega se zanesljiv in nezahteven za vzdrzevanje, se zal ne da narediti. Pri BMWju so v (ne tako daljnji) preteklosti ze imeli podoben projekt, ki pa se je zal slabo koncal. To je bila seveda serija 8. Novi M6 je kljub drugacnemu imenu cisto nic drugega kot samo naslednik 850 CSi in ima kot tak ze na zacetku zelo tezko nalogo. Pri vsem tem me najbolj cudi ravno to, da se pri BMWju niso iz slabih izkusenj v preteklosti prav nic naucili, ampak se naprej trmasto rinejo z glavo skozi zid. Nadaljevanje prihodnjic... :hi


Avto nima namena bit oskubljen športnik ala Enzo ali F430, tega namena nimajo niti kupci, niti tovarna niti inženirji. BMW itak slovi po svoji lahkotni okretnosti, kljub masi, v primerjavi s tekmeci. Ampak ne morete pa pričakovat od NOVEGA(varnega!!!) avtomobila, da bo z V8 motorjem in tega velikostnega razreda imel 1200kg...To ne gre....no seveda gre, ampak na račun udobja in prestiža, ne morete ga pa primerjat z Lotusom ali Caterhamom...BMW tega tudi noče, ta avto ni za gorsko hitrostne ture ampak za križarjenja po avtocesti in ovinke pri 120+
(PureTNT...vem da si se šalil glede Lotusa, tist ne leti nate)

Glede stroškov vzdrževanja...tak ki si takšen avto kupi ima ponavadi v računico všteto tudi redno vzdrževanje(pustimo pokvarljivost)...žal pa z leti takšnemu avtomobilu cena pade, pukupijo ga (poleg ljubiteljev!!!) še 25 letni mulci, ki ga zgonijo, avta ne cenijo, za vzdrževat pa ni denarja in se posledično še bolj kvari in potem si pridobi avto sloves predragega avtomobila...ta avto ni namenjen osebam z 150 jurjev dohodkov na mesec, torej tudi vzdrževanja na ravni 316i ne moremo pričakovati!
Understeer is when the driver is scared, oversteer is when the passengers are scared
 
Uporabniški avatar
Tattoo-
Uporabnik
 
Prispevkov: 1318
Pridružen: Če dec 16, 2004 10:33 pm
Kraj: Circuit de la Sarthe

Napisal/-a Tattoo- So dec 18, 2004 1:40 pm

Slide je napisal/-a:Avto nima namena bit oskubljen športnik ala Enzo ali F430, tega namena nimajo niti kupci, niti tovarna niti inženirji. BMW itak slovi po svoji lahkotni okretnosti, kljub masi, v primerjavi s tekmeci. Ampak ne morete pa pričakovat od NOVEGA(varnega!!!) avtomobila, da bo z V8 motorjem in tega velikostnega razreda imel 1200kg...To ne gre....no seveda gre, ampak na račun udobja in prestiža, ne morete ga pa primerjat z Lotusom ali Caterhamom...BMW tega tudi noče, ta avto ni za gorsko hitrostne ture ampak za križarjenja po avtocesti in ovinke pri 120+
(PureTNT...vem da si se šalil glede Lotusa, tist ne leti nate)

Glede stroškov vzdrževanja...tak ki si takšen avto kupi ima ponavadi v računico všteto tudi redno vzdrževanje(pustimo pokvarljivost)...žal pa z leti takšnemu avtomobilu cena pade, pukupijo ga (poleg ljubiteljev!!!) še 25 letni mulci, ki ga zgonijo, avta ne cenijo, za vzdrževat pa ni denarja in se posledično še bolj kvari in potem si pridobi avto sloves predragega avtomobila...ta avto ni namenjen osebam z 150 jurjev dohodkov na mesec, torej tudi vzdrževanja na ravni 316i ne moremo pričakovati!


Podpis! :clapclap
There are only three sports: bull fighting, car racing and mountain climbing. The rest are mere games! - Ernest Hemingway
 
Uporabniški avatar
Avalon
Novinec
 
Prispevkov: 414
Pridružen: Ne nov 28, 2004 12:22 am
Kraj: Vrhnika

Napisal/-a Avalon So dec 18, 2004 5:24 pm

Tole je Slide dobr spisal, sam realnost bo pa točno taka kot jo je napisal. Žal.
Varno vožnjo vam želi Avalon.
 
_Jerry_
Uporabnik
 
Prispevkov: 1196
Pridružen: Če jul 22, 2004 12:55 pm
Kraj: Ljubljana

Napisal/-a _Jerry_ So dec 18, 2004 8:08 pm

Drseci prijatelj, to je popolnoma jasno :D To je avto, namenjen bogatim kupcem, ki ne vprasajo za stroske vzdrzevanja. Kot tak mora biti seveda tehnicno inovativnejsi, mocnejsi, hitrejsi in nenazadnje tudi ze na prvi pogled mogocnejsi od konkurence. Zal pa je BMW v tem razredu (luksuzni Coupeji) bolj ko ne zacetnik. V novejsi zgodovini, seveda, pred vojno je izdeloval precudovite in zelo cenjene coupeje in roadsterje. Ampak casi so se medtem korenito spremenili. Dandanes bogati kupci zahtevajo od avtomobila mnogo vec, kot so od njega zahtevali njihovi dedki in babice pred vojno. Prihaja torej do situacije, ko se mora proizvajalec avtomobilov odlociti, katerim zazeljenim lastnostim bo pri konstruiranju novega modela dal prednost in katerim se bo na racun tega moral odpovedati. BMW je, po mojem mnenju, spet zajel (vroco) juho s preveliko zlico in se lahko (spet) temeljito opece! Po mojem mnenju bi bilo za tovarno veliko bolje, da bi namesto popolnoma nove konstrukcije motorja posodobili in izboljsali staro, v mislih imam V8 motor iz Z8. Ce gremo se korak naprej, se lahko vprasamo, zakaj je bilo sploh smiselno razvijat cisto novo obliko Coupeja in Cabrioleta, ce pa bi lahko namesto tega mirno (in z VELIKO manj stroski) naredili izpeljavo Coupeja na osnovi Z8? BMW je namesto, da bi ponudil izboljsano verzijo necesa, kar je dobro, izdelal nekaj popolnoma novega, in to zelo na hitro, tako da se nikakor ne bo mogel izogniti otroskim boleznim, ki bodo verjetno se dolga leta pestile novi model. Dobro, boste rekli, pa saj bogatim kupcem ni mar za stroske. Seveda. Se kako veliko nevsecnost pa jim pomeni nezanesljivost taksnega avtomobila in (na videz nepomembno) dejstvo, da ga moras stalno voziti k mehaniku! Za poslovneza je izguba casa izguba denarja! In tu se racun nikakor ne izide. In potem se clovek vprasa: zakaj, za _udica so pa potem rinili z glavo skozi zid? Odgovor je tudi tokrat zelo preprost. Zaradi kariere. Projekta Z8 in M6 sta deli razlicnih "ocetov projekta" (tocnih imen ne poznam, poleg tega je to le moja teorija, tako da me prosim popravite, ce dejstva govorijo drugace) in drugi (Bangle, ce se ne motim) je vodstvo tovarne preprical, da koncajo projekt Z8 in zacnejo cisto na novo. Napaka, ki jo bo BMW dolgorocno zopet drago placal (to je seveda le moje skromno mnenje...)!
 
PureTNT
Uporabnik
 
Prispevkov: 814
Pridružen: Pe dec 10, 2004 10:36 pm

Napisal/-a PureTNT So dec 18, 2004 9:16 pm

_Jerry_ je napisal/-a:Drseci prijatelj, to je popolnoma jasno :D To je avto, namenjen bogatim kupcem, ki ne vprasajo za stroske vzdrzevanja. Kot tak mora biti seveda tehnicno inovativnejsi, mocnejsi, hitrejsi in nenazadnje tudi ze na prvi pogled mogocnejsi od konkurence. Zal pa je BMW v tem razredu (luksuzni Coupeji) bolj ko ne zacetnik. V novejsi zgodovini, seveda, pred vojno je izdeloval precudovite in zelo cenjene coupeje in roadsterje. Ampak casi so se medtem korenito spremenili. Dandanes bogati kupci zahtevajo od avtomobila mnogo vec, kot so od njega zahtevali njihovi dedki in babice pred vojno. Prihaja torej do situacije, ko se mora proizvajalec avtomobilov odlociti, katerim zazeljenim lastnostim bo pri konstruiranju novega modela dal prednost in katerim se bo na racun tega moral odpovedati. BMW je, po mojem mnenju, spet zajel (vroco) juho s preveliko zlico in se lahko (spet) temeljito opece! Po mojem mnenju bi bilo za tovarno veliko bolje, da bi namesto popolnoma nove konstrukcije motorja posodobili in izboljsali staro, v mislih imam V8 motor iz Z8. Ce gremo se korak naprej, se lahko vprasamo, zakaj je bilo sploh smiselno razvijat cisto novo obliko Coupeja in Cabrioleta, ce pa bi lahko namesto tega mirno (in z VELIKO manj stroski) naredili izpeljavo Coupeja na osnovi Z8? BMW je namesto, da bi ponudil izboljsano verzijo necesa, kar je dobro, izdelal nekaj popolnoma novega, in to zelo na hitro, tako da se nikakor ne bo mogel izogniti otroskim boleznim, ki bodo verjetno se dolga leta pestile novi model. Dobro, boste rekli, pa saj bogatim kupcem ni mar za stroske. Seveda. Se kako veliko nevsecnost pa jim pomeni nezanesljivost taksnega avtomobila in (na videz nepomembno) dejstvo, da ga moras stalno voziti k mehaniku! Za poslovneza je izguba casa izguba denarja! In tu se racun nikakor ne izide. In potem se clovek vprasa: zakaj, za _udica so pa potem rinili z glavo skozi zid? Odgovor je tudi tokrat zelo preprost. Zaradi kariere. Projekta Z8 in M6 sta deli razlicnih "ocetov projekta" (tocnih imen ne poznam, poleg tega je to le moja teorija, tako da me prosim popravite, ce dejstva govorijo drugace) in drugi (Bangle, ce se ne motim) je vodstvo tovarne preprical, da koncajo projekt Z8 in zacnejo cisto na novo. Napaka, ki jo bo BMW dolgorocno zopet drago placal (to je seveda le moje skromno mnenje...)!


Zelo dobro si povzel trenutno situacijo. Dejstvo je, da je facelift X5 Bangle hotel izdelati v čisto svoji podobi, pa so ga hvalabogu za vajeti zagrabili kar pri samem vrhu tovarne, tako da je izdelek ven prišel všečen. Me pa vseeno zanima, kaj se dogaja z Banglom. Za tiste, ki ne veste, taisti gospod je oblikoval tudi E46 serijo 3 in E39 serijo 5, ki sta mi oblikovno oba še danes zelo pri srcu. Vendar pa je zanimivo dejstvo, da splošna publika, dokler so jim bili avtomobili oblikovno všeč, nikoli ni pomislila, kdo je te avtomobile tudi ustvaril, danes pa je ime Bangle še kako razvpito. Tudi novi motor ima porabo pri umirjeni vožnji prek 20 litrov. To je več, kakor pri enaki vožnji porabi Mercedes CL55 in tudi CL65 AMG (!). In potem Mercedes izjavi, da opušča motorje s kompresorji, ker imajo preveliko porabo. Sicer pa kot je bilo nekajkrat že izrečeno, čas bo pokazal kako se ti motorji obnesejo v praksi. Sam mislim, da bi BMW moral ostati pri starem motorju. Kar se tiče Z8 je bil avto zelo distinkten, dokaj popularen v ZDA in je imel zelo "timeless" dizajn. Čez 10 let pa boš skupaj postavil Z8 in M6, pa si upam predvidevat, kakšen bo izid primerjave.
 
Uporabniški avatar
andrej777
Poznavalec foruma
 
Prispevkov: 2102
Pridružen: Če okt 16, 2003 9:16 pm
Kraj: Telče (Sevnica)

Napisal/-a andrej777 Ne dec 19, 2004 1:15 am

Kakšna poraba 20 litrov. M5 je mel na testu neke hrvaške revije pri moči 507KM (izklopljen omejevalnik moči) porabo 17 litrov na 100km. Pa to ni bla vožnja po AC in regionalkah ampak na dirkališču. Tako da lahko ta avto pri 400KM in normalni vožnji "preživi" z cca 12-14 litrov na 100Km kar je glede na težo in moč zelo dober podatek.
It's not the speed that kills, it's the sudden stop that hirts !!
 
Uporabniški avatar
Caterham
Stalni uporabnik
 
Prispevkov: 535
Pridružen: Sr jul 21, 2004 10:20 pm
Kraj: Doma

Napisal/-a Caterham Ne dec 19, 2004 6:18 pm

Slide je napisal/-a:To ne gre....no seveda gre, ampak na račun udobja in prestiža, ne morete ga pa primerjat z Lotusom ali Caterhamom...BMW tega tudi....


Hvala Slide... ;) ;)
No need to be big to go fast......
 
PureTNT
Uporabnik
 
Prispevkov: 814
Pridružen: Pe dec 10, 2004 10:36 pm

Napisal/-a PureTNT Ne dec 19, 2004 6:26 pm

andrej777 je napisal/-a:Kakšna poraba 20 litrov. M5 je mel na testu neke hrvaške revije pri moči 507KM (izklopljen omejevalnik moči) porabo 17 litrov na 100km. Pa to ni bla vožnja po AC in regionalkah ampak na dirkališču. Tako da lahko ta avto pri 400KM in normalni vožnji "preživi" z cca 12-14 litrov na 100Km kar je glede na težo in moč zelo dober podatek.


Ta avto pri vožnji po dirkališču NIKOLI ni imel porabe 17 litrov.
 
Uporabniški avatar
Slide
Moderator foruma
 
Prispevkov: 4349
Pridružen: Po maj 03, 2004 10:55 am

Napisal/-a Slide Ne dec 19, 2004 6:56 pm

PureTNT je napisal/-a:
andrej777 je napisal/-a:Kakšna poraba 20 litrov. M5 je mel na testu neke hrvaške revije pri moči 507KM (izklopljen omejevalnik moči) porabo 17 litrov na 100km. Pa to ni bla vožnja po AC in regionalkah ampak na dirkališču. Tako da lahko ta avto pri 400KM in normalni vožnji "preživi" z cca 12-14 litrov na 100Km kar je glede na težo in moč zelo dober podatek.


Ta avto pri vožnji po dirkališču NIKOLI ni imel porabe 17 litrov.


BMW 325i compact je imel na mobikrogu okrog 20l porabe...ne spomnim se točno, lahko pa pogledam v AM...

LP
Understeer is when the driver is scared, oversteer is when the passengers are scared
 
Uporabniški avatar
andrej777
Poznavalec foruma
 
Prispevkov: 2102
Pridružen: Če okt 16, 2003 9:16 pm
Kraj: Telče (Sevnica)

Napisal/-a andrej777 Ne dec 19, 2004 7:30 pm

Slide je napisal/-a:
PureTNT je napisal/-a:
andrej777 je napisal/-a:Kakšna poraba 20 litrov. M5 je mel na testu neke hrvaške revije pri moči 507KM (izklopljen omejevalnik moči) porabo 17 litrov na 100km. Pa to ni bla vožnja po AC in regionalkah ampak na dirkališču. Tako da lahko ta avto pri 400KM in normalni vožnji "preživi" z cca 12-14 litrov na 100Km kar je glede na težo in moč zelo dober podatek.


Ta avto pri vožnji po dirkališču NIKOLI ni imel porabe 17 litrov.


BMW 325i compact je imel na mobikrogu okrog 20l porabe...ne spomnim se točno, lahko pa pogledam v AM...

LP


Hrvaška Avto revija. Nevem katera. Piše da so primerjali 911 pa M5 na nevemkateri stezi. Poraba na testu pa je pisalo 17,xx L /100km. Je bla pa verjetno poraba pri normalni vožnji. Vseeno ni veliko. Aja pa itak da una poraba ni bla pri dirkanju na polno. To ni šans. Samo šparal ga pa tudi niso.
It's not the speed that kills, it's the sudden stop that hirts !!
 
Uporabniški avatar
Nixxon
Mojster foruma
 
Prispevkov: 3646
Pridružen: Ne jul 27, 2003 10:42 am
Kraj: Vrhnika

Napisal/-a Nixxon Po dec 20, 2004 10:42 am

@Jerry: Bangle NI kriv za vse, kar tebi ni všeč pri BMWjih. In odločitev je na ramenih direktorjev. In po mojem mnenju niso naredili napake. Z8 bi postal preveč običen, če bi ga razvijali naprej, tlačili vanj druge motorje,... In kako bi iz Z8 naredili velik coupe?

@PureTNT: BMW motorji NE kurijo več kot primerljivi primerki od Mercedesa, in poraba, povprečna 20 litrov je vprašljiva oziroma vanjo ne verjamem. Auto bild: http://www.autobild.de/test/neuwagen/ar ... el_id=7062 Verbrauch 14,8 l SP/100 km
Slika
 
_Jerry_
Uporabnik
 
Prispevkov: 1196
Pridružen: Če jul 22, 2004 12:55 pm
Kraj: Ljubljana

Napisal/-a _Jerry_ So dec 25, 2004 11:18 pm

Nixxon je napisal/-a:@Jerry: Bangle NI kriv za vse, kar tebi ni všeč pri BMWjih. In odločitev je na ramenih direktorjev. In po mojem mnenju niso naredili napake. Z8 bi postal preveč običen, če bi ga razvijali naprej, tlačili vanj druge motorje,... In kako bi iz Z8 naredili velik coupe?


Bangle JE kriv za cisto vse, kar meni ni vsec pri BMWjih ;) Odlocitev je seveda na ramenih direktorjev, jih pa lahko prepricas ali pa ne (in Bangle jih s svojimi sweet-talking-bullshiti pac JE). It's THAT simple. O napakah bi se lahko se dolgo pogovarjali, pa cisto na kratko: ceprav se BMW trenutno dobro prodaja, nihce ne ve, kaj bo jutri. Ce ne oblika, jih zna pokopat nezanesljivost (kot je Italijane), ki je tudi posledica goltanja juhe s preveliko zlico. Z8 bi pa res postal bolj "obicen", so what? Tak kot je, ima mesto v muzeju in pri bogatih zbiralcih, z vecjo serijo pa bi se spustila tudi cena izdelave in bi bil dostopen sirsemu krogu kupcev. Od tega, da je nekaksna nedosegljiva ikona, nima skoraj nihce nicesar. Avto je (bil) enkratno lep, kljub V8 motorju (ali pa ravno zaradi tega dobro preizkusenega agregata) primerno enostaven in neproblematicen za vzdrzevanje in njegov cas se je VELIKO PREKMALU iztekel :( Kako bi iz Z8 naredili velik Coupe? :shock: A ti mene mal zafrkavas, al ja? :wink: No, ti bom pa se jaz odgovoril v enakem stilu: privarili bi mu hardtop streho in ga preimenovali v C8 -pol ure dela... :mrgreen:
Vrni se na Vozila prihodnosti

Kdo je prisoten

Po forumu brska: 0 registriranih uporabnikov in 18 gostov