Spyker

To sem hotel "povedati".

dobesedni prevod ->dvosmerno ni najboljši izraz, ker zrak ne gre v eno in potem v nasprotno smer, kot bi si lahko kdo z izraza 2smerno predstavljal, bisto je(mislim da je že swifthead napisu) da gre zrak lahko po eni ali drugi poti, za nižje vrtljaje po eni in za višje po drugi...to je to, ni nujno da so dve turbine, prej so ta problem reševali z lopaticami v turbini

glih danes sem peljal bmw-ja 330ci in vam povem da je to avto ki je res po domače hudobija, ampak da ma še turbino pol se ti pa mora matija kazat

točno tako kot je povedal Slide!!! gre za eno turbino in nikakor ne gre za pretok v obe smeri (zrak nau nazaj v intercooler pihal valda) vendar se sistem vseeno imenuje Two-Way Turbocharger!!! Biturbo pa takega sistema ne rabi ker, to delo opravljata 2 turbini ze dosti bolje!!!Pika! Lp

swifthead je napisal/-a:ma kasne dve turbini. a ti ni jasn d sm reku da je sam ena!!! drgac bi napisal BITURBO!!! dvosmerna turbina obstaja ze pr Mazdi 6 MPS, poglej na slikco od motorja 2,3L z 280km in gor piše TWO-WAY Turbo!!!Lp

Sej se ni treba razburjat. Jest sem samo napisal, da mi ni poznan sistem "dvosmerne" turbine in mislim da ne obstaja (jaz si to razlagam kot da gre lahko zrak v eno in v drugo smer, za kar pac turbine niso narejene). Two-way turbo pa pac ne pomeni dvosmerne turbine, ampak dve poti po katerih gredo izpusni plini. Zdej ne vem.. Jest sm zdele kr solidno preiskal google za two way turbinami in za mazdo6 MPS, pa nikjer nc ne pise kej o two way turbinah al pa kej.. Najdu sem samo to, da je v mazdi6 MPS ena turbina, lahka in mejhna, da hitr kickne, ampak da vseeno daje spodoben boost ( http://www.grohol.com/mazda/ms6.htm ).. Lepo prosim, ce mas kake linke o two-way turbinah, ce jih prilimas, me zelo zanima ta tehnologija..
Jest si edino lahko predstavljam dvojno pot v eni turbini tako, da bi naredili turbino z dvema kompresorskima deloma.. Ampak pol je pa ze vseeno ce mas dve turbini..

@Slide: lopatice v turbini se se vedno uporabljajo, ampak za to, da se spreminja kot, pod katerim gre zrak na lopatice turbine.. Mislim da to nima nic veze z dvojnimi potmi.. Razen ce imas v mislih kake druge lopatice?

//edit: swifthead, ves razliko med biturbo in twinturbo?

EX-B je napisal/-a:

swifthead je napisal/-a:ma kasne dve turbini. a ti ni jasn d sm reku da je sam ena!!! drgac bi napisal BITURBO!!! dvosmerna turbina obstaja ze pr Mazdi 6 MPS, poglej na slikco od motorja 2,3L z 280km in gor piše TWO-WAY Turbo!!!Lp

Sej se ni treba razburjat. Jest sem samo napisal, da mi ni poznan sistem "dvosmerne" turbine in mislim da ne obstaja (jaz si to razlagam kot da gre lahko zrak v eno in v drugo smer, za kar pac turbine niso narejene). Two-way turbo pa pac ne pomeni dvosmerne turbine, ampak dve poti po katerih gredo izpusni plini. Zdej ne vem.. Jest sm zdele kr solidno preiskal google za two way turbinami in za mazdo6 MPS, pa nikjer nc ne pise kej o two way turbinah al pa kej.. Najdu sem samo to, da je v mazdi6 MPS ena turbina, lahka in mejhna, da hitr kickne, ampak da vseeno daje spodoben boost ( http://www.grohol.com/mazda/ms6.htm ).. Lepo prosim, ce mas kake linke o two-way turbinah, ce jih prilimas, me zelo zanima ta tehnologija..
Jest si edino lahko predstavljam dvojno pot v eni turbini tako, da bi naredili turbino z dvema kompresorskima deloma.. Ampak pol je pa ze vseeno ce mas dve turbini..

@Slide: lopatice v turbini se se vedno uporabljajo, ampak za to, da se spreminja kot, pod katerim gre zrak na lopatice turbine.. Mislim da to nima nic veze z dvojnimi potmi.. Razen ce imas v mislih kake druge lopatice?

//edit: swifthead, ves razliko med biturbo in twinturbo?

Seveda se še vedno uporablja, spremenljivi kot pa poskrbi za podobni učinek, kot takšna turbina...za malo boljšo prožnost pri nižjih vrtljajih, ter vseeno zadosti potiska pri višjih

@Slide: No, sej to sem mislil in to ma kokr vem vecina turbinskih avtov danes.. Nisem pa se slisal izraza two-way za ta sistem, uradno se temu rece spremenljiva geometrija lopatic al neki tazga..

EX-B je napisal/-a:@Slide: No, sej to sem mislil in to ma kokr vem vecina turbinskih avtov danes.. Nisem pa se slisal izraza two-way za ta sistem, uradno se temu rece spremenljiva geometrija lopatic al neki tazga..

Saj two-way in s.g.lopatic ni eno in isto, two-way je to da zrak lahko potuje po dveh poteh, čeprav ta sistem jaz bolj poznam iz NA avtomobilov in sesalnimi kanali, ako nisem popolnoma pomešal...
Spremenljiva geometrija lopatic je pa spet drug sistem, ma pa v grobem isti namen, nikakor pa ni podobna
bistvo je da dobesedni angleški prevod ni dober...dvosmerna, ampak prej dvokanalna al kako bi človek temu rekel...ne vem kako bi se izrazil, si pa predstavljam kako deluje.

Jaz bolj kot to upam da bo BMW res v trojko porinil turbino, ker to bo pa blo...uffff

@Slide: dej mi prosim povej mal vec, kako si ti predstavlas ti dve poti v turbini.. Ker to zna bit zlo zanimiva tema, resitev je vec.. Fajn bi blo kaj prebrat o tem

Tud jest mocno upam na tole turbino v kaki lepi trojkici Bom kupil rabljenga enkrat ko bodo cene padle cez 10 let :P

Tole sem nahitro našel na starem dobrem googlu, ampak pod imenom twin scroll turbo...tudi glede mazde

Can you tell me about that new twin scroll turbo Garrett put out?

A twin scroll turbine housing uses dual side by side passages into the housing. When coupled with a pulse converter manifold that separates exhaust pulses as many crank degrees in the firing order as possible, a twin scroll or divided housing works to reduce lag, decrease exhaust manifold backpressure on the top end, reduce the potential for reversion, and increase fuel economy. The twin scroll is based off the same reasoning a tri-Y header uses: keep spent exhaust gases out of an adjacent cylinder drawing in fresh air. At high rpm on a turbo car, exhaust backpressure is usually significantly higher than atmospheric pressure, and often higher than intake manifold pressure as well. A divider between each of the two volutes allows the cylinders to expel the exhaust gases without it interfering with the fresh air for combustion. Since there are two openings, each a smaller overall volume than a single scroll design, the exhaust velocity of each pulse can be maintained. This also spins the impeller more easily because lag is a function of the scroll area. A single turbine housing opening isn't as efficient since cylinders on the exhaust stroke of the 4 stroke cycle contaminate the cylinders that are on overlap with exhaust gas. A conventional turbine housing is not as effective in using exhaust pulse energy to help spin the turbine up to speed as it does not exploit the energy contained in the pulses as well.




To improve the driving performance of the turbo rotary engine, the second generation Savanna RX-7 adopted the type 13B engine with a Twin-Scroll Turbo which would minimize turbo lag. The Twin-Scroll Turbo divided the exhaust intake scroll of the turbine into two passages so that exhaust could be supplied step-wise. With this configuration, the single turbocharger acted as a variable turbo and sufficiently covered a wide range of speeds.
In 1989, The Twin-Scroll Turbo evolved into the Twin-Independent-Scroll Turbo, which had a more simplified configuration. When this new turbocharger was coupled with improvements in the engine internals, it provided more outstanding low-speed torque, improved responsiveness, and upgraded driving performance.
Twin-Scroll Turbo System

This system helps reduce the turbo-lag, a traditional drawback of the turbo-charged engine. The duct leading the exhaust gas to the turbine was split into two passages, one of which was closed by a valve to accelerate exhaust gas flow at low speeds.

Nekaj takšnega si jaz predstavljam...dva kanala od katerih je eden zaprt drugi pa odprt, potem pa se zamenjata ali pa odpreta kar oba

še to
What are twin scroll or divided inlet turbine housings? What are the benefits of using a twin scroll turbo?
A "twin scroll" or "divided inlet" means that there are two separate volutes within the turbine housing. The main reason for doing this is to isolate the pulses coming from each exhaust port and maintain more of the pulse energy from each cylinder all the way down to the turbine wheel. There are no differences between the turbine wheels used in open or single inlet turbines compared to those used in twin or divided inlet turbines.

Generally speaking, a divided inlet turbine setup will respond faster and produce boost quicker than single or open design of the same nozzle area, of course this is dependent upon proper execution. The simple fact that a divided housing is used does not guarantee these results.

While it does not cause any problems or harm to run a divided inlet turbine housing on a manifold that is an "open" design, none of the benefits of the twin inlet will be seen.

NICE!! Hvala za pojasnitev Sej tole sm ze vidu, dvojne vhode, ampak nikol nism vedu zakaj so dvojni Zanimiv sistem, kaj se ne spomnejo ej, da mas dve loceni poti samo za tiste cilindre ki skupaj udarijo, ostali so pa tacajt zaprti, ful hudo No, dobro da smo razcistili tole, my bad za tisto prvo, ko sem mislil da je isti sistem kot pri dizlu, torej TwinTurbo

vse tako kot je dodal Slide!!!

Edit: razlike med Twin-Turbo in Biturbo je ta da ma Biturbo dve sekvenčni turbini, TT pa dve ki butneta skupaj v višjih vrtljajih!!!!

swifthead je napisal/-a:vse tako kot je dodal Slide!!!

Edit: razlike med Twin-Turbo in Biturbo je ta da ma Biturbo dve sekvenčni turbini, TT pa dve ki butneta skupaj v višjih vrtljajih!!!!

Se pravi pri Twin-Turbo pri nizkih obratih ne dela nobena turbina pri visokih pa začenta obe naenkrat delat? Kaj je potem point twinturba? Ogromen sunek ko obe turbini štartata?

Meni se pa zdi, da je TT sekvencni turbo (toyota supra TT recimo).. Biturbo sta pa dve turbini, vsaka fila svoj del valjev..

//edit: ceprav na to temo najdem same nasprotujoce podatke po enciklopedicnih straneh na netu.. Ljudje uporabljajo izraz TT za dve turbini, v katerikoli konfiguraciji ze. Za TT pa najveckrat zraven napisejo "sequential turbo". Vseeno mislim da je pravilno TT za sekvencni turbini, biturbo pa za dve posamezni turbini (to pa zato, ker ime sovpada z quadturbo, sistemom stirih posameznih turbin, ki jih je imel mislim da nek bugatti..).

EX-B je napisal/-a:Meni se pa zdi, da je TT sekvencni turbo (toyota supra TT recimo).. Biturbo sta pa dve turbini, vsaka fila svoj del valjev..

//edit: ceprav na to temo najdem same nasprotujoce podatke po enciklopedicnih straneh na netu.. Ljudje uporabljajo izraz TT za dve turbini, v katerikoli konfiguraciji ze. Za TT pa najveckrat zraven napisejo "sequential turbo". Vseeno mislim da je pravilno TT za sekvencni turbini, biturbo pa za dve posamezni turbini (to pa zato, ker ime sovpada z quadturbo, sistemom stirih posameznih turbin, ki jih je imel mislim da nek bugatti..).

Ceprav je pomoje bolj poimenovanje, bi rekel prej obratno - "twin" bi prevedel kot dvojcka. Npr. pri V-motorjih, kjer 2 polnita vsaka eno linijo, sta turbini enakih velikosti, zato "twin". No, tako je moje razmisljanje, pa se citat iz wikipedie:

Other setups, most notably in V-type engines, utilize two identically-sized but smaller turbos, each fed by a separate set of exhaust streams from the engine. The two smaller turbos produce the same (or more) aggregate amount of boost as a larger single turbo, but since they are smaller they reach their optimal rpm, and thus optimal boost delivery, faster. Such an arrangement of turbos is typically referred to as a "twin turbo" setup.

Some car makers combat lag by using two small turbos (like Toyota, Subaru, Maserati, Mazda, and Audi). A typical arrangement for this is to have one turbo active across the entire rev range of the engine and one coming on-line at higher rpm. Early designs would have one turbocharger active up to a certain rpm, after which both turbochargers are active. Below this rpm, both exhaust and air inlet of the secondary turbo are closed . Being individually smaller they do not suffer from excessive lag and having the second turbo operating at a higher rpm range allows it to get to full rotational speed before it is required. Such combinations are referred to as "sequential turbos". Sequential turbochargers are usually much more complicated than single or twin-turbocharger systems because they require what amount to three sets of pipes-intake and wastegate pipes for the two turbochargers as well as valves to control the direction of the exhaust gases. An example of this is the current BMW E60 5-Series 535d.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger

EDIT: no fajn, sploh nism prebral zadn del tvojga posta

No ja, dvojcka ja Ne vem.. Recimo Toyota Supra mk4 TT ima dve sekvencni turbini na svojem vrstnem sestvaljniku in temu recejo TwinTurbo. Potem sem pa najdu se drug primer, Nissan 300ZX TT, ki pa ima za vsako vrsto valjev svojo turbino, ampak tud temu recejo TwinTurbo.. Zdej pa vedi kaj nej bi blo uradno kej..

Uradno pa je malo drugače: Biturbo je, ko sta dve turbini in vsaka fila svojo vrsto valjev. Naprimer Audi RS4: V6 Biturbo je komercialna oznaka. In avto ima na vsakem izpušnem kolektorju eno turbino ki polne, vsaka svojo vrsto. Pri točno tem motorju ni čisto tako, ampak to je bistvo Biturba.

Twinturbo se reče ko ima dve turbini na enmu kolektorju kot na primer BMW 535d. V nižjih obratih dela samo manjša turbina, pri srednjih obe skupaj in pri najvišjih samo večja turbina. Lahko delaujeta zaporedno ko je to potrebna, medtem ko Biturbo ves čas dela samo vzporedno.

Twinturbo princip bo uporabil tudi Opel na Vectri OPC(1.9 dizel). No vsaj tako se je govorilo.

Tocno tako imam tudi jaz v glavi. Ampak ljudje (pa tudi tovarne!) pa uporabljajo vsak po svoje..

razumem jaz to kak deluje ja.Podobno kot če bi imel VANOS sistem plus turbino zraven.